HaBitza

so coffee means "I love you"?

So sad.  I have to admit defeat.

Out of 68 votes, 35 of you have voted that guys should pay on the first date.  Only a measly 6 of you agree with me that the first date should be declared Dutch (sorry to all Netherlanders who find this offensive…).

I can only conclude that:

• You prefer the awkwardness of not knowing how much the evening will cost you?
• You prefer not knowing if you have to pay for her meal, or for her coffee, or just for yourself?
• You prefer having someone say to you (or think at you) “after I spent all that money on you, you’re not going out with me again?”
• You prefer the indecision about what to order because you’re starving, he’s only ordering coffee and he’s paying? or not?
• You buy into the concept that a guy should be judged by his generosity with money on the first date?
• You buy into the highly sexist brainwashing we’ve all gone through that something in the guy spending money on the girl is truly romantic?
• You believe that dating is so traumatic that you’re going to make the guys pay, literally?  Because you should at least get a free coffee, sushi, burger meal, gourmet repast out of it?
• You (the guys) have lots of money and really don’t care one way or another?  (in which case you can take me and my soulmate out any time…)

Can romance grow without being connected to spending money?  Is everyone so happy with the way things are done now that they are unwilling to look into doing things differently?  Does the expression “well that works for me” come to your mind?  And do you ever wonder, if it works so well for you, why is it so traumatic or uncomfortable?

We’re closing this poll within the next few days – so if you just haven’t bothered to vote yet – VOTE DUTCH!

Photo by lepiaf.geo at flickr

I like that word, just by the way.

It’s pretty sad that something that, in the good old days (because everything back “then” was just soooo good), was exciting, nerve-racking and intriguing, has become an annoyance for many. When you imagine the old fashioned first date, you imagine both sides being excited, the boy combing his hair in front of the mirror, putting on an extra spiffy bow-tie and his favourite slacks. The girl stands in front of her wardrobe way too long trying to decide which dress to wear, tries on more than one, puts on some bright pink or red lipstick and carefully removes her curlers.

He picks her up and they stand across from each other awkwardly. They both feeling excitement at the potential in the air.

What happens today when a 30-year-old is going on his/her 100th first date?

Look, the fact of the matter is that we’re talking about a whole other ball game. When someone goes on a first date at the age of 20, they are going on a different kind of date than someone 10 or 20 years older. First dates can become more and more difficult as the years go on. On the one hand you want to be open-minded, go out with the sincere interest in getting to know someone, but at the same time, you might prefer not to get too excited because your scientific statistic analysis has taught you that it “probably” won’t work out anyway (so far 100% of the time, that has been the case).

One of the things we’re doing here at HaBitza.com is working on changing the accepted norms when it comes to a first date. Yes, we must date like a mensch but we also must have accepted dating etiquette that makes sense! We’re living according to many first-date rules that are based on the old-fashioned first date! It’s like taking the rules for bike-riding and trying to apply them to driving a car. Some rules will fit but so many won’t and many will be missing.

So, for example, we still have the poll up asking who should pay on the first date. Around 50% of the people said the guy should. But wait. Stop for a second. Why in the world should the guy pay? Chivalry? To show he’s generous? What about the loss the guys incurs by paying for all those girls with whom there isn’t even a second date? What about the feelings a girl might have, taking all this money, over and over and over again?

Should the attitude not change by now?

One girl once told me she looks at first dates like interviews. She sets a time at a certain cafe she likes and speaks to them for an hour or so and then lets them go. I like the idea because it’s potentially efficient and not heartwrenching. On the other hand it makes me sad that we’ve gotten to the point where a date might lose the excitement of the Original Date (you like that?:)) but at the same time, maybe it’s lost it already anyhow. Or maybe, changing the rules to fit reality can help bring back more positive feelings around the first date.

Definitely I believe that the nature of the first date has changed. The question is, how do we finally accept that and create a framework where the rules match the experience.

Look, I understand gender role and all that… But I’m yet to hear a good explanation for why guys should pay on the first date. Forget anything past the first date. Lets just talk about the first date. What is benefited (besides a free drink for the girl) by having the guy pay for a girl he very possibly will never see again? (Sorry to be negative but if the “average” person dates dozens of people but only marries one…)

We’re currently running a poll on HaBitza (to the right of this post) asking who should pay on the first date and right now, around 50% of the people are saying that of course the guy should pay.

WHY?!?!?!

Because one day when you give birth and can’t work for a few months you need to know that he’ll be able to support you? Because you need to know he’s generous? But doesn’t he also need to know that you’re generous? And doesn’t generosity have to do with way more things than just money? What if he doesn’t pay but he’s very attentive? What if he doesn’t pay but he makes sure you’re comfortable?

For years I’ve had people tell me about the importance of the guy paying. It never sat right with me but I always listened and always told people I believed the guy should pay. I figured that even though I don’t exactly get it, it’s the “ultimate truth” and so it must be followed blindly.

Sheesh.

Anyway, I think that the only reason a guy should pay on the first date is because it’s accepted. So once it’s accepted, it’s like there’s something weird or off if the guy doesn’t offer to pay. But if only it weren’t accepted, I think it would make a lot more sense.

Why? Because I always feel uncomfortable on the date when it comes time to pay. If I knew I was just going to pay for my own, I could order what I want without worrying about having someone who is practically a stranger paying for me. Also, the guys wouldn’t have to have a special dating fund or, at least, both guys and girls would need one but the guys’ fund could be smaller. Why should guys get the full expense of dating for years and years?

I’m sure there are other very good reasons for the first date to be dutch. During a time when people didn’t go on more than a few first dates in their lives, maybe it made sense. But have things not changed enough that this “rule” should change too?

Photo by Monochrome on flickr.

Our last poll asked the question:

Are you currently a paid/active member of a dating website (including matchmaker sites like Saw You at Sinai)?

34 people answered.

11 (32%) said: Yes – I’m a paid/active member on one site.

7 (21%) said: Yes – I’m a paid/active member on two sites or more.

9 (26%) said: No – I’m not into that. 26%

5 (15%) said: No – I am currently taking a break from dating sites.

2 (6%) said: Other: 6%

There was one comment by P. Almonius: “Tried SYAS, didn’t like it. It felt like someone sat down and said ‘we like how traditional matchmakers are impersonal and inflexible, but how can we make it more alienating?’”

So, out of the 32 who didn’t say “other,” 18 are currently active online on at least one website and 14 are not active (either temporarily or at all).

Nine people said they’re just not into it… I wonder why. Is it people who never tried it or tried it and were turned off? I sometimes walk down the street and see very nice looking guys and I think to myself, “I’ve never seen those guys online!”

A couple years ago I read an article in the Canadian Jewish News where a single girl gave a shout out to the single population asking people to join dating websites. I totally hear her! Even though it’s becoming way more accepted, and even though we all keep hearing about people who met through a dating website, for a lot of people there still seems to be a certain stigma. I think that if online dating websites are used wisely, they can be a great tool in the dating journey. I also think all of you who have your lives together and stay away from these sites – stop it now!

Of course, part of wise usage is knowing how to make a decent online profile. I wrote a piece giving tips on that.

We’re now going to put up a new poll but here is the old one and you can still vote if you haven’t yet.

Dare I admit that I attended my first singles event. Ever. I’m serious! I cannot remember… Damn! As I wrote those words I remembered one horrid singles event I attended years ago. It was such a depressing experience, I must have attempted to block it out of my memory.

Comment retracted: This was not my first, though I thought at the time it was.

But anyhow, as I always try to be honest, I will have to admit that the dinner I attended a couple nights ago was really quite nice. It’s really all about the people and they sat me at a table with people who I really enjoyed. And I was grateful that the organizers didn’t have any ideas of making us play games, nor did they have us change seats in the middle in order to maximize the number of people we’d meet throughout the evening.

One could argue that more games and more musical chairs would have made the dinner more “effective.” My vote isn’t in about that yet. But it definitely was way more comfortable being at the event as it was.

Hilariously, I was sitting and talking to a few people during the dessert/mingling part and a guy (one of the people attending) came up to us, stood up on his virtual soap box and told us that in order to make this evening worth while, we should not suffice with just having casual conversation with people of the opposite sex but, instead, be sure to follow-up with people of interest, afterwards. I loved that this stranger was so proactive, going around the room sharing his idea with everyone there.

I see how my opinions and feelings change over time. A few weeks ago I expressed an aversion to marrieds organizing singles events. Since then I have been thinking more and more how important it is that people try to help each other. I wrote about the importance of friends setting up friends and honestly, anyone who wants to help, kol hakavod to them.

Since I started having that attitude, I admit that still, my first reaction when seeing the planners of the event was, “What do you know, Mr. and Mrs. Married?” and, “Do you think you’re better than us and we’re a bunch of nebachs who need your help?” But in the end, the stronger feelings I had were those of gratitude and respect for these people who were trying to make a difference in something that didn’t affect them directly. This is to be admired, in my opinion. Especially since, if it’s only singles planning singles events, then the moment they find their besherts, they drop off the scene and leave a void until a different single person picks up the reins and goes with it. If, on the other hand, someone is organizing events no matter their personal status, there will most probably be more staying power.

We had a poll up on HaBitza.com a couple weeks ago where we asked you if you like/hate singles events. It seemed that a large percentage of those who answered, hate them. But after attending this past event, the way it was set up, it was nothing more than a very nice social event. I met some new people, talked to old ones and enjoyed some very interesting conversation.

Maybe single events don’t have to be so torturous or, an even bigger maybe: Maybe singles events really aren’t so bad but people are embarrassed to admit they like them. As someone said to me the other day, “No one is going to say, ‘Oh, I love singles events! Why I just went to three this week!’”

Of course there is the possibility that this singles event was especially nice – particularly because they didn’t do anything singles-y… for better and for worse. Because one piece of feedback I got about the event afterwards was that not much tachles came out of it. I know that’s true for myself. There wasn’t anyone there that seemed particularly interested in me or was proactive about being in touch afterwards. So maybe this event was too comfortable. Not that I’d necessarily be willing to go to an event that was more in your face about it being a singles event.

But still I ask, what is the deal with singles events? Are they really as bad as many singles make them out to be? Is it possible that any proactivity connected to finding your beshert – whether it’s going to a matchmaker or signing up to a dating website – has a certain taboo attached to it and so it’s much easier to talk against them while really they aren’t that bad and they can be helpful in our searched for the right person to marry?

And most importantly: Will I ever go to another singles event again? :)

(Today I wrote a post about the pervasive taboo.)

Wow. 13 out of the 17 people who voted on the last poll said it’s important the guy calls the girl back within 48 hours of the first date. Around half of those said it’s also best not to call too soon after the date (one reason being to give the girl time to think) while the others said it was fine to call right after.

Four people said it doesn’t necessarily have to be the guy calling the girl. Oh, am I curious if it was guys or girls who voted that choice!

You can still vote – the poll continues to be active. (Included below)

And, of course, our new poll is up. We ask you if you are active on any dating websites. Having a profile you haven’t updated in months without paying any of the site or without contacting anyone of the opposite sex, doesn’t count as active, fyi. Please let us know!

Our latest poll question was:

If you met someone over the Internet or were set up and didn’t know each other before, is it OK to reject that person after ONE date by text message?

(SMS is text messaging, btw.) (btw is by the way.)

Honestly, when Vera and I first discussed it, I thought it was a great idea. When you have had no connection with someone before being set up (or meeting online), you only went out once, and you know you don’t want to go out again, what’s the big deal breaking it off with an SMS? It’s not even a break-up, you guys barely even know each other’s names. So isn’t it so much easier for both sides to not have to make contact again with that dreaded post-first-date phone call to say, “Hi, you’re really nice, etc. etc., but I don’t think I want to go out again. Thanks. Have a good life”?

Here were the results at the time of publishing of this post:

5 voters (26%) said: Amazing idea! – Can be so much less painful for both sides

8 voters (42%) said: That’s terrible! – Shows a lack of respect and appreciation.

No one said: Yes, but only for people who meet through the internet.

1 voter (5%) said: I don’t know.

5 voters (26%) said: Other.

You can still vote, if you haven’t yet.

Within a couple of days I totally changed my mind. I agree with the majority who say that it’s a bad idea. I’m curious what people’s reasonings are but I can tell you mine.

I ran the idea by a friend of mine. And we got to talking about a terrible syndrome – the One Date Syndrome. We were discussing how easy it is in the religious dating world to go on first date after first date for an extended period of time. And from talking to her I realized it’s probably a very bad idea to make it easier to go on only one date. If people feel responsibility towards each other, it will lower the chances of discarding someone out after one date. I use that harsh language because maybe that’s what it becomes. And if you can SMS a goodbye after one date, it makes it that much easier to enter the One Date Syndrome. On the other hand, if you’re forced to face the other person directly, this might help you keep perspective of the fact that they really are human.

So, that is my opinion. As far as it being the menschlech thing to do, I don’t agree 100% because if it were accepted to SMS a “no” after a first date (NOT after more than one date, of course), then it would be considered menschlech and anyway, who said the person being rejected really needs that call? Is there not something easier about being “rejected” (the quotation marks are because it’s barely a rejection after one date) in writing instead of having to go through the silly phone call where the two people talk politely for a couple of minutes and then one of the people (if not both) finds out that the other actually is intending on discontinuing communication after those two minutes?

Bottom line, SMSing a “no” after a first date is………. drum roll……………………….. a big no-no.

Our topic of discussion of the week (besides all our random soapbox pieces) is about text messaging a rejection. People seem to have very strong reactions to this idea, that if you’ve only been on one date with the girl/guy and you know you don’t want to go out again, you can tell the person with a text message.

The people who are for it…

Some people really like the idea right away. Why should someone put you and themselves through the emotional distress of having a phone conversation with someone who is talking to you a couple of minutes out of politeness but, in fact, is planning on dumping you in a moment? This actually could be way easier for both sides, if you think about it. Being the rejecter or the rejectee is not easy.

Also, we’re only talking about instances where that first date was the first real interaction you guys had. You don’t know each other from before and there weren’t lots of phone calls or other correspondence. Because in the case of there being some amount of connection before the first date, then yes, it seems only right to at least talk to the person in order to tell them you don’t want to go out again.

The people who are against it…

Others think it’s really quite offensive. How can you not have the common courtesy of at least talking to the person, telling them on the phone. Also, maybe this would just make it too easy to break up with someone before giving them a chance. Maybe the difficulty of making the phone call is good in some way.

Please vote in the poll on the right and feel free to share your feelings on this topic.

P.S. Whether you decide to SMS a rejection or not, DON’T do it two seconds after you walk away from the person. At least wait until the next day so it’s a little less hurtful.

P.S. Those of you without cell phones, well, that’s just weird. : )

Two weeks ago we put up our first HaBitza.com poll. We asked you how you feel about singles events. No one loves them. Shocker. Most of you hate them.

Here are the numbers at the time of the publishing of this post:

59 people voted.

27 (46%) said: Kill me now. Can it be more awkward and depressing?

No one said: LOVE them! It’s what I live for.

12 people (20%) said: Nothing to lose. May as well try.

12 people (20%) said: I’m married. Thank God these are behind me.

8 people (14%) said: Other.

A theory exists that married people don’t realize that singles hate singles events. Interesting phenomenon. It could be that this is only because marrieds don’t need to think about singles events (a single event to a married person is like a lamaze class to a single guy). But I wonder if married people who are planning singles events know how we feel about them. As I wrote earlier, I can appreciate the effort and the thought behind it. But maybe that’s not enough.

What is it about singles events that is so difficult? Meat-market is one thing you hear. Fish bowl is another. Yes, the thought of sitting in a room with people checking each other out with that goal and no other is not the most pleasant. Something else I heard about them, I cannot write here out of fear of being offensive but if you plan singles events and want to know, please send me a private email.

Are singles events effective, though? I wonder…

Anyway, I know that for me, having married peers at an event can make all the difference. It creates an environment of normalcy. Today when I was talking to Vera about this topic, she pointed out that once you’re married it can be difficult to meet new people. So, why could there not be an event that has some kind of meaningful/interesting content (a musical evening, a good class or just awesome food) and let it be a social event for all “young adults” (or whatever specific age group) to meet new people. There could be a program at the event that helps new people meet each other without the focus being on making matches.

Please write your thoughts about singles events. What types of events are you attracted to? Which ones make you cringe? If you write your opinion, the people who are planning these events can change them accordingly!

If you haven’t voted yet, please feel free to below. The poll is still active.

Guess what we’re talking about.

Single events, of course.

These are typical answers you’ll hear from a single person when you ask them how they feel about singles events. You’ll also hear awkward stories about playing networking games (called “singles games” at these events) and being “forced” to talk to people you know without a shadow of a doubt you will never be standing under a chuppa with.

This is such a sad state of affairs for a few reasons. First, I wonder if singles events have improved at all (it seems that singles dreaded them years ago and we still do till this day) (oh, at least it’s like a wonderful, long-lasting tradition). Second, for the most part, the people planning them, I will assume, are lovely, well-meaning people. They are just trying to help.

"I just came for the food."

But the truth is the truth. And what is the truth? That when I hear about an event, I considering it. When I suddenly find out it’s a singles thing, I have a strong aversion that barely allows me to consider it any longer.

I ask you, dear singles and non-singles who sincerely care to help, is there no alternative?

Honestly, I understand why singles events exist. If you go to a regular event, they may be fun but they are often not conducive to meeting new people. And you aren’t necessarily meeting people who are looking to get married. At a singles event, you know that supposedly everyone is there because they want to get married. But need it be so painful? Also, if there does continue to be singles events, should they be planned by marrieds? I know people are just trying to help but when it’s marrieds planning these events, it suddenly starts feeling like you’re a chesed case needing help from someone more fortunate (and successful) than yourself.

I think one must ask two questions: First, should singles events still exist at all and second, if so, how should they change? My first question is based on the very important fact that at events, having married peers creates a very different, and much more relaxed and healthy environment. Maybe singles events are just too forced and become a very uncomfortable meat market. As for the second reason, assuming that singles events continue to exist for a reason, how can they be improved so maybe we could actually go and have a nice time?

Notice that we currently have a poll up about this topic. Let us know how you feel when you hear about a single events.

Photo by Green Garden Girl at flickr.