HaBitza

Michael Makovi has generously agreed to share the true story about the two week period when he learned a lot about women.

Michael. Check out his blog by clicking on his pic.

Back in April / Nisan of 2008, I happened to meet a young woman on Facebook, whom I could tell had a damn good head on her shoulders. (She was communicating on a group I belonged to, about Maimonidean rationalism, discussing proofs that the Zohar is not an authentic part of the Jewish tradition.) I said that we should “meet up”, and we scheduled a meeting. Read that very carefully: I said we should ”meet”; I would pay the price for my ambiguity later.I used the word ”meeting” very deliberately. Suffice it to say for now, it was not a smart move by me. So we had our first “meeting”, and then, a few days later, we went on a date (*a* date, not *another* date). That night, I got to walk her quite a ways home, even though she kept telling me that she didn’t need an escort.

Over the next few days, meanwhile, we were having very long phone conversations, sometimes for three or so hours at a time. Sometimes, we were both getting up out of bed too late for class, because we kept talking to each other first thing in the morning. (I remember the highlight of my day being waking up, to see if any messages from her had come while I had been sleeping.) I actually still have saved all the text messages we sent to each other; I count ninety messages from her. So it was a rather intense relationship, I suppose. In fact, on our first meeting, which lasted several meetings, we made plans to meet again that same night! The plan fell through, because she got sick, but still, when you plan two meetings with the same person on the same day, you know something promising is afoot.

Meanwhile, for some reason that I no longer remember – probably because the “reason” was too stupid even for a sea-sponge – I got the idea in my head that perhaps, she wasn’t romantically interested in me. But of course, I didn’t want to sound like an idiot (which I think I was), so I didn’t actually ask her. Because that would be too obvious, of course.

So she called me one day and asks me if I’d like to meet up with her, right then, at that moment. I went to the appointed spot, and she had several friends with her. We proceeded to spend the next hour or two going clothes-shopping.

(Most.boring.time in my life. Look, this girl could have been a scantily-clad supermodel, and it’d still have been boring enough to drive a man near to suicide. I highly recommend to all the women here that you *never* take a man to a clothing store. *Ever*. If you have to, drop him off somewhere en route, and pick him up later. For the love of G-d, please, *never* take a man to a clothing store. And for some reason, my friend Neti also took me clothing shopping, but in her defense, I was in fact making romantic advances towards her that she was repeatedly declining, so she has an excuse. If you want to tell a guy you aren’t interested in him, just take him shopping for clothing.)

So, I had already had thoughts that she wasn’t interested in me romantically, and the fact that she took me with her girlfriends to a clothing store only cemented this thought in my mind. I thought maybe she was trying to subtly distance me from romantic-type thoughts so as to spare my feelings. I consulted with a female friend of mine, and she confirmed my suspicions.

Then, in my inexperienced, insensitive way, I *called* her – on the *phone* – to apologize to her if my repeated flirting and such had made her uncomfortable, and had made her feel the need to try to distance herself from me, etc. Of course, in doing this, I had unilaterally assumed how she must be feeling, without ever asking her (cf. http://habitza.com/2010/09/23/does-he-want-a-second-date/). Well, wouldn’t you know it, but she up and burst
into tears on the spot! In between her sobs, we had a conversation something like the following:

Her: WHAT DO YOU THINK WE’VE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE TIME?
Me: Err…I don’t know…?
Her: The second time we were out, wasn’t that a date?
Me: Oh, the *second* was a date? Then what was the *first* time we met?
Her: You asked me if we wanted to “MEET UP”!!!! Ergo, it wasn’t a
date! But wasn’t the *second* time a date? And if not, why did you
walk me home the whole way?
Me: Err…oh…crud…

I then explained to her how I thought she wasn’t romantically interested, and was (to my sea-sponge-esque intelligence) trying to distance me, and such, and she asked me why I didn’t simply ask her. I told her that I didn’t want to sound stupid.

Meanwhile, for the past several times we had had conversations, she often accused me of not listening to her. She would tell me about her problems, such as her not knowing how to balance her desire to stay in Israel with her desire to finish her degree in America. Then, I would give her practical advice on how to solve that problem. Repeatedly, she’d say I wasn’t listening to her, and I’d respond that given my point-by-point practical advice, I was most definitely listening to her every word! But our conversations on this topic always ended at an impasse, with no satisfactory conclusion. We had several such conversations.

So a few days after the conversation of her sobs and my cluelessness, she called me and said we had to meet up again. She told me how much she liked me, etc. etc., but that too many times, I had failed to listen to her. Furthermore, the sob-conversation didn’t help. She told me that I reminded her too much of her father, who loved her but was too emotionally-dense to ever tell her that fact during her entire childhood. Plus, she had to return to America to finish her degree. On top of that, my lack of college degree or livelihood-earning-capability didn’t help either. She told me that she’d return to America, and that we should both date other people in the meantime, but that if and when she returned, we could resume dating. So that was that. I saw her one last time, when I saw her off to her bus en route to the airport.

Oh, and even after she left Israel, we were still communicating, and I managed to offend her yet again, when she was telling me more about her problems, and I yet again offered her practical advice. So then, with a rabbi with whom I had a havruta in learning Orhot Tzadiqim – this rabbi doubling as a marriage counselor – I discussed my supposed inability to “listen” to this girl. He told me that when women tell you their problems, they want emotional commiseration, *not* practical solutions to their problems. Finally, I understood why she thought I wasn’t “listening” to her, and finally, I understood why my defense (how could I offer point-by-point practical advice to her unless I very carefully listened to her) did not assuage her. Following this conversation, my rabbi would occasionally make a funny impression of me being an emotionless hyper-Yekke. (This rabbi learned under Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits – FTW!!!! (What’s FTW?) Also, I *totally* want him to be my chatan teacher when the appropriate day comes, but I digress…) So I asked the girl (by now in America) what would have happened had I followed this rabbi’s advice to give her emotional commiseration and not practical advice, and she straight-up told me, “We’d still be dating.”

And that was the end of that. Six months after she left Israel, she was engaged. Oh, and our entire relationship in Israel, with all its bumps, lasted one-and-a-half *weeks*. Yes, less than two weeks!

I’ve never specifically endorsed any dating site in the past since for the most part they are all the same structure. Sign up, look at profiles, pay if you want to contact someone or if you want to read a message someone sent you (besides supertova which is free). And the build of the profiles is almost identical on all the conventional dating sites.

But I keep telling people about OKCupid because it is such a different online dating experience and so I feel it’s time for me to write about it here.

It’s free.

First of all, it’s free. Free free free. Did I mention that it’s free? Moving on…

You get matches that are appropriate for you.

No, it’s not a Jewish website (I did not mean to mention that right after the free thing!). But it is set up in a way that you can really have it geared towards who you are. In all the time I’ve been on (a few months), probably 99.9% of the guys who have contacted me have been Jews living in Israel. The site automatically sends you suggestions and there too mine are always Jewish men in Israel.

This is not the only reason I think that it doesn’t actually matter that it isn’t a Jewish site.

It’s *gasp* enjoyable to use.

Dating needs to be made as enjoyable as possible. This site is headed in that direction. There is actually something funky and fun about the site and when you visit it, you might actually feel a little funky and fun yourself. Even if it’s a dreaded dating site you’re visiting.

I honestly think it would be amazing if more religious people came on because the whole site seems to be more conducive to meeting interesting people than other sites. I know it’s possible that if you’re on the site long enough, there too you’ll feel like you’ve milked it for all its worth but it just seems to be different people than I’ve seen elsewhere online.

Higher quality

One of the main issues I have with jdate is that the majority of people on it in Israel don’t fill out their profiles. You’re lucky if there is a freakin’ photograph of this supposed potential match. And then these people who couldn’t even be bothered to tell you one thing about themselves contact you. Um, hello? It’s a big world out there. I need something to go on!

For some reason, most of the people on OKCupid have taken the time to fill out their profiles. It is possible that it is attracting totally different people than the other dating sites but my main theory regarding the amount of info up about the “average” (Jewish Israeli male) user is that the profile is way more fun to fill out.

Yup, it’s a pretty different style than what we’re used to. The questions are more creative and that seems to bring out a creative side in people. It asks you questions like: What are the six things you couldn’t live without? And: I’m really good at… And: What I’m doing with my life (instead of: I work in…). You’d be amazed how people answer questions that are worded differently.

Actually, reading people’s profiles can be an amusing past-time there! :)

The Google of online dating

OK, I’ve exuded enough enthusiasm but one more thing that is important to mention about OKCupid. It has been called the Google of online dating by the Boston Globe. This, I think, is because they are going all out figuring out algorithms for putting the “right” people together. They are taking the huge amount of information they are getting from the activity on the site and analysing it to understand what different kinds of people like, etc. They have a blog that is actually quite fascinating to read. Warning, it can be a little un-religious at times but if you’re up for it, I definitely recommend taking a look.

You can read about all the (very young!) people behind this enormous project on their about page. Wow they’re young!

Look, it’s new to me so maybe that is what makes it that much more exciting than the Jewish dating sites but I don’t think so. It is a very different experience for the better and tachles, I’ve met some interesting and nice people on the site, even if I have only gone out with a couple of them. I have found it to be a more quality experience than elsewhere.

And the minuses are:

I guess I’d say the minuses I have seen are that first of all of course you still must remember that people are people and not everyone is necessarily what they make themselves out to be. I went out with one guy from there who I was very excited about from his profile and then I felt like he was a totally different person in person. I was actually freaked out by that experience and shied away from OKCupid for a couple months after that. It almost felt like because the site is conducive to cool profiles it’s harder to tell when someone isn’t so cool.

Another negative would be that it is obviously missing some questions that might be important to religious Jews. The amazing thing is, though, that anyone can create quizzes on the site and someone could create one about religious issues which could totally become popular amongst religious people.

And one more negative (and this will probably be the biggest negative for some women especially): You do have some pretty random people looking at your profile. I’ve had a couple of Jordanians check me out, for example. None have contacted me but if there is already something uncomfortable about having your pictures and information up for strangers to see, it feels quite a bit more uncomfortable when it is totally “random” people taking a peek.

I recommend!

Either way, in general, it’s a cool site and I see that it already has a lot of non-Orthodox Israelis on it. I can totally see it becoming a nice change for the more traditional or religious Jewish crowds too. Now just for someone to start the trend…

If you check it out, let me know what you think!

P.S. FYI, they already offer a search of only Jews. Also, a user named Nevuchadnetzar has created a “How Jewish are you” test. I think there needs to be a more religious one created (though from a quick peek at his profile he seems to be religious himself) but point is, it’s possible.

Ilene just wrote in a comment and asked:

By the way Deena, I’m curious to know if your dates know that you blog about your dating experiences, at least on general terms. Do you think that affects things at all? I’d be pretty nervous going out with a dating blogger!

Good question. :) And definitely one I’ve thought about a lot because I’m curious and also because it has concerned me that it could turn guys off.

Me blogging about my latest date

Regarding the guys knowing, it usually works a couple of different ways. Sometimes the guy knows before he even says yes to going out with me and other times he finds out somewhere along the way. This either happens during the phone call (if he asks enough questions when I say that I wrote/blog, then I mention it) or on the first date.

I think 100% of the time guys know by the end of a first date with me.

I also wonder how it affects my dating! It is too hard to tell. It has happened once that a guy could not fathom being with someone that was writing about dating (or in general writing about slightly more personal things than the stock market). But I usually say something like this when I tell them about the site:

“Yes, I have a site about dating but I don’t really write directly about my experiences. It’s not as if I’m going to go home from this date and write about you. But things in my life give me ideas for material and I write about general ideas.

“It actually happens to me all the time that I have ideas for blog posts that I can’t write because it’s too personal for me or someone else. So I really try to consider other people’s need for privacy.”

I ask them if the idea bothers them and almost no guys ever react really negatively. But who knows what they’re thinking!

The thing is that in general, I am a writer and I write about life experiences. I cannot imagine being with someone who wasn’t at least OK with that and able to trust me that I would always be careful not to hurt them (or others). And even more than that, I am quite sure the person would have to actually appreciate what I do. Meaning, it probably can’t just be a lack of negative feelings towards my writing but an appreciation of it because it’s such a big part of who I am. I will probably not blog about dating my whole life but I will most probably continue writing about life my whole life (I hope!). I don’t think this will be a temporary thing so really, if a guy cannot figure out what the hell I’m doing writing my thoughts and feelings here, I doubt it could work with him (though, of course, who knows).

Does that answer the question? :)

Deena

Photo by Mike Licht, NotionsCapital.com on flickr.

I read you like an open book.

Once after a date I enjoyed very much, the guy called me up and said he just didn’t think it was it. I was disappointed and surprised because I had felt like we both enjoyed ourselves. But then I was even more surprised when he continued and said: “You felt the same way, right?” Obviously I didn’t and I told him I didn’t (not that I had any good reason to but I felt the need for him to know that I would have wanted to go out again).

Ah, to ass-u-me. You know what they say… When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. :)

It’s crazy how much above mentioned guy and I were on such different wavelengths.

I guess I’ve learned over time never to assume anything. I can day dream all I want, hope, whatever. But no matter how good or bad a feeling I have after a date, I always presume (yes, presuming is fine: ) I have no idea if the guy wants to go out again. Until I hear it from his own lips.

The thing is that all this assuming comes from a very dangerous activity and that is reading into things. Especially when you just met someone (and really long afterwards too), the only time you really know what’s going on in their heads is when they say it to you directly. That is the only information I’d consider reliable. But to analyse things that happened or didn’t happen on the date and through that try to figure out all these things like, is he interested, what did he think about different things, is not a good idea.

P.S. The same goes for women, of course. Especially since men and women have such different behavior, if we try to read into things based on how we understand things, I think that is bad news.

Photo by Playingwithbrushes on flickr.

Please note:  this post was triggered by the following comment – but is in no way addressed specifically to this person.  Critique of an entire gender is so commonplace now it’s become an accepted norm, a subject of discussion.  There are times when we all (married, single and anywhere in-between) need to examine ourselves, need to re-assess how we talk about others and how we relate.

Just a guy:

I am not just hurt. I am not just broken. I am ANGRY. I cannot have a meaningful relationship with a woman now. I have tried. Lord I have tried! I was SUCKED DRY. Every inch of my soul is simply burning with pain from the HORRORS I underwent BECAUSE OF YOUR GENDER!

So many people, men and women, single, married, divorced have been through bad experiences.  Some say it’s only the men, some say it’s only the women, and some say they deserve each other.

But get real – question is, do you, does anyone want to stay with such feelings?  To carry on treading the same rut?

And do you, just a guy, want to be considered as just a guy? a man?  (or amongst the macho, a real man?) or a person?  I address the same question to the women who malign men day in day out – do you want to be considered as a woman first – or as a person?

When Deena and I gave the original tag line to this site, we called it “Date like a Mensch” – not like a man, or like a woman.  “Menschlichkeit”, behaving like a mensch, comes before and way above sexuality in relationships.  Without it marriages can’t work, relationships can’t work, and let’s face it, even a single date can’t work.

To malign an entire gender is not menschlich – whether it comes from a man or a woman.  And beyond that, for anyone wanting to get married – it’s not useful, not helpful, and serves to distort the soul.

Move on, look for the individual, look for the good in that individual, and be aware of your power in relationships, because even the one who feels so much like a victim has power if he/she would only wake up to it.

But repeating complaints without purpose – unless, just-a-guy and others, you’re trying to convince yourself to enter a monastery or a single-sexrelationship – is just that, without purpose.

Date like a mensch.  That is the only way to go.

1. Find someone you would at all consider dating.
2. Make sure the really basic things (the huge deal-breakers) match.
3. See if you enjoy the person’s company.
4. If yes, keep hanging out.
5. Find out what is wrong with the person.
6. Decide if those are things you can live with.
7. Find out if the other less important deal-breakers match.
8. If you think you can live with a) what doesn’t match and b) the things that are wrong with the person, and c) if you still enjoy their company, get married.

Photo by Tim Green aka atoach on flickr.

So cool. I was shown two videos today, both about not saying what you’re really feeling. Both are really fun, engaging videos to watch. Let me know what you think.

Could have been love story

Chinese boy in love

Enjoy!

So I hear there is this book that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am too picky. No, the author has never met me but it’s a book about women and so I guess it’s about me too.

The book, Marry Him, the case for settling for Mr. Good Enough, was brought to my attention by JustAGuy, one of HaBitza.com’s readers who commented on my blog post So, what are you looking for? and other popular questions. The discussion on the post became slightly heated when JustAGuy wrote:

…I do not have an extensive and completely unreasonable/irrational list of demands for my spouse. If I did then that would make me a woman.

Read the rest of the discussion. It only got prettier.

Honestly, I am pretty sure I am focused, for the most part, on important character traits when looking for my life partner. Of course we should all be pretty “picky” considering we’re talking about filling an important job position and it is supposed to be long term.

But if pickiness exists, I think that in general, it is a symptom of today’s culture where we’ve been conditioned to believe that we can get exactly what we want. I mean, think how stressful it is when you make a purchase only to find a quirk in your new possession! I seriously doubt people used to have such high expectations of the people and things that came into their lives because they knew that it’s impossible to get a perfect package.

Of course this whole discussion about female pickiness is especially amusing since just a week or two ago a woman who was visiting from NYC went on and on explaining how picky the men are there in the Upper West Side (her examples were pretty appalling). Looking for the perfect woman.

So, who’s picky?

Last week I was talking to a guy acquaintance of mine and he explained to me that guys are bad and they are way worse than woman realize or want to realize.

I don’t even know what he was talking about but keep thinking about that statement. Honestly, I think it’s a personal thing (maybe he thinks he’s bad or he hangs out with guys who he sees as bad) but I keep wondering how much truth there is in what he said.

So, are men these naturally evil beings who need to crush that nature in order to appear normal, civilized and even *gasp* kind?

P.S. Can you tell what my opinion is? But of course any guy could say I don’t really know…

Recently I had a conversation with someone and I told her that I want B and in order to get to B, I need to do A. She could relate except after a few more minutes of this discussion, we realized we weren’t actually talking about the same thing.

For me, A was dating and B was meeting the right guy. For her, B was having a baby/children. I cannot relate and I guess that’s because, for me children is this far-off fantasy… It’s hard for me to imagine it having that much to do with me. This is not to say that one day I won’t try to have children if the opportunity arises. It is just that at this moment I really don’t feel I can have any concrete opinions about children in relation to me. And I just don’t yearn for it.

When you are yearning, what is it for – is it for the relationship? The building a family? Or is it for something else?

Do you think women generally yearn more for motherhood and men more for the relationship?