Lists again…
March 9, 2010
What’s the weirdest thing on your list? Come on – everyone has them. Deena is so right.
Examples of less weird:
- He must have a “good” job – and don’t bring me someone who’s earning zillions and is a plumber, I’m not a snob but really…
- She must have a college degree
- He must be a fun person, someone who plays softball in the park, someone who goes “singing in the rain”, someone who comes to the date with a gemara under one arm and a football under the other
Examples of more weird:
- He must wear a certain kind of kippa – not the teeny ones, not the black velvet ones, not the ones that look, you know, bought…
- She must wear certain clothing – jeans skirt sweeping the floor, layers of clothing with a cape on top
- He must be able to sing really well, and harmonize with himself in three voices
- She must be able to play the harpsichord
And on it goes.
What’s your weirdest criteria? This is your chance to come clean…
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Deena
Vera Resnick
Only women are obsessed with lists. Guys only ask: is she reasonably attractive, is she not crazy or a JAP or someone who nags, and is she around my level of observance? We’re pretty simple creatures. You should get a male co-blogger as well to write from the other side of the fence.
And that isn’t a list?
(hate these smiley things but they do express a certain nuance)
1. reasonably attractive
2. not crazy
3. not a jap
4. not someone who nags
5. around my level of observance
BTW we do work with a lot of input from males… and I’m not sure all of you agree about being pretty simple. And I think 5 things on your list is not pretty simple
My point is that our “list” is not as prospect-excluding as those women. The categories are general. Women, on the other hand, specify things to the point where 98% of men are excluded like: taller than this measurement, at least this specific level of education or yeshiva study, this amount of net worth, one of these types of jobs, from this country (or this region or this city or this neighborhood), and a level of observance exactly like hers. And this is a short version. A girl once told a friend of mine that his eyes weren’t “sexy” enough.
Guys are much more chill (though, to be blunt, they are chill about nearly everything but the weight factor).
Most guys I know would be happy with a simple, modern Orthodox girl who can cook a good meal and raise good children without nagging and pestering him all the time and who isn’t going to go “cold” in the bedroom. All is else commentary. Guys don’t care about degrees and resumes.
By the way:
He must have a “good” job – and don’t bring me someone who’s earning zillions and is a plumber, I’m not a snob but really…
This is not less weird. Any girl with that attitude should not get a shidduch. That’s horrible. Many blue-collar guys have hearts of gold, they are in shape, and they are handy around the house.
To start at the end – I apologise for my Brit sense of humour – the non-weird stuff is just as weird as the weird. You got it. And you can’t always blame a girl for attitudes she drank in with mothers’ milk and is herself embarassed about – I’ve heard some girls say they wouldn’t date a plumber, and it was shocking because otherwise they were great people (the girls and the plumbers).
I don’t buy the rest of your argument at all. If the guys don’t have lists, as you say, if they really will easily go out with a girl who is taller, older, has any level of education, has any background – then either all the guys should be married, or they should all be drooping from multiple rejections.
And regarding your paragraph starting “most guys I know” – what century are you living in exactly? Most guys I know would be happy to marry someone who can help carry the family finances, they don’t like not being allowed to cook, and they are definitely into involvement in raising children. You present a form of marriage that died out in the 1950s IMO.
I agree very strongly with Deena on this that honest self-assessment and awareness of lists can make a big difference to the process.
David, you make it sound like a list is necessarily a bad thing. Not at all! It is an understanding of what is important and less important to you personally. And I have noticed that with my maturing, my list has become more refined. Meaning, for example, I am less scared about dating someone I am not initially attracted to. In general, I am way more open-minded about things that seem less critical or things that can change and am more focused on the most important things to me like kindness, honestly, a will to grow and a personality that I can imagine getting along with…
The bottom line here is also just the fact that it’s very hard for me to believe that this “singles problem” is the fault just of one side – in this case you’re saying the girls’. I have the same strong reaction when people diss guys. We all have room for improvement and I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that whatever’s going on is only the fault of one of the genders.
Oh, and btw, why do you keep mentioning nagging? This in itself bothers me. A marriage is a relationship between two people. If I were to walk into a room not knowing anything about a couple and see the woman nagging the man, I would be able to assume nothing from that. A person usually acts in a way that is a reaction to something. There is most probably a complex series of events that lead to that one scene where the woman is nagging. And it most probably has to do with the relationship that has been built, probably without much thought, between the two people. Each person is responsible for their own actions but if you don’t want a nagging wife, it’s probably a really good idea ahead of time to consider what in your own actions might, one day, God forbid of course, lead to nagging in the home.
Just to be clear, I am not removing all responsibility from the woman. But, just like with the singles situation, except when we are talking about extreme cases (like abuse), it usually takes two to tango.